Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,098
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default How does everyone approach learning?

    I've been a bit lax in guitar practicing lately, I've only picked up a guitar about once a week for the past couple of months. I'm actually starting to lose my fingertip calluses. But that's a whole different discussion.

    So I'm planning on getting more string time in the near future, and was wondering how everyone approaches learning a new piece. Either an actual cover song, or a course lick/technique. One school of thought is to keep drilling on passage for an entire practice session. The other is to work through the passage 3 or 4 times, and then move on to other pieces of study. And finally do you drill the passage(s) every practice, or do you rotate different lesson plans each day?

    Not really a poll, just interested in other peoples thoughts.
    Honey, I'm spending money on guitars or women, ... your choice.

    If you take Satan for a ride, pretty soon he'll want to drive.


    Favorite Course - Blues Alchemy
    Working On - Fretboard Epiphanies & Jump Blues

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rjbasque View Post
    I've been a bit lax in guitar practicing lately, I've only picked up a guitar about once a week for the past couple of months. I'm actually starting to lose my fingertip calluses. But that's a whole different discussion.

    So I'm planning on getting more string time in the near future, and was wondering how everyone approaches learning a new piece. Either an actual cover song, or a course lick/technique. One school of thought is to keep drilling on passage for an entire practice session. The other is to work through the passage 3 or 4 times, and then move on to other pieces of study. And finally do you drill the passage(s) every practice, or do you rotate different lesson plans each day?

    Not really a poll, just interested in other peoples thoughts.
    I've been working on Tears in Heaven, working on a measure, or a few notes that are difficult to play, 3 times then move on, this seems to work best for me. If I can play it 2 times well but on the the 3rd time mess up I start all over. I'm using the 3 times approach to learn modal scales, inversions, etc., trying to spend 10 to 15 min. in each area, practicing the same lesson plan, as time permits, everyday.

  3. #3

    Default

    Here's what I went thru yesterday in regards to practicing, out of curiosity I went thru TF TV and found what I could the opinions of the the TF instructors, Buono, Arnold, etc. on "Practicing". One instructor would say,''practice when you feel like it', another, "practice what turns you on", another, "learn rhythm" another, "learn scales". The opinon's were so diverse that my head exploded.

  4. #4

    Default

    I borrow something that Jack Nicklaus said about practicing golf (ok I am the golfnutt ). He would work on a particular club or shot for 20 min. max and the move on to something else. He would come back to it later in that practice session or wait until his next session. The thinking was that after 20 min your mind starts to wander and it’s not "quality" practice anymore.

    So when I am starting to learn something new I use a similar approach. If it’s a fast lick or phrase I try to learn it at a slow tempo until I can get it clean and then work on speeding it up. I like to spend about 20 min. or so then just play something for fun to clear my mind and not think just play. Then I come back and pick up where I left off or start some other part of my “study” it may be the same thing or another aspect of practicing. I just like to break up the practice time with some “work” and some fun.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rjbasque View Post
    (...), and was wondering how everyone approaches learning a new piece. Either an actual cover song, or a course lick/technique. One school of thought is to keep drilling on passage for an entire practice session. The other is to work through the passage 3 or 4 times, and then move on to other pieces of study. And finally do you drill the passage(s) every practice, or do you rotate different lesson plans each day?(...)
    I guess it depends on the time you have in hands on a regular basis. For instance, Steve Vai has a 30-hour workout but is based on a 10-hour a day plan. That would allow you to practice something to "exhaustion" and still have time in hands to cover everything else that's required. But if you have only one hour a day to spare then it must be a whole different story. SO I guess the key is in the balance.

    Golfnutt brought a great point here - quality time:

    He would work on a particular club or shot for 20 min. max and the move on to something else. He would come back to it later in that practice session or wait until his next session. The thinking was that after 20 min your mind starts to wander and it’s not "quality" practice anymore.
    I'm thinking right now that you must have a minimum ammount of time to dedicate to subject, too. ... if I were to try to practice everything that needs to be addressed - I guess that just on the right hand I could give 10 minutes to each topic and spend a good couple of weeks without repeating any... that' wouldn't be good.

    Personally, what I'm trying to do is to combine exercises so you can cover 2 or 3 topics at a time. Like... I'm practicing harmonized scales: one day I may do it with a pick, the other fingerpicking, the other thumbpicking, and yet other doing it in arpeggios. If I'm practicing scales, I can go strict alternate one day, economy on the next and doing hammer ons and pulloffs on the next day.

    Recording videos is a good thing too, I guess I have to do it for other school I'm at, and I'm doing it here with Frank Vignola's latest course; you dedice that each Sunday you're going to record a video, you choose what, and then you can buill your practice plan around it.

    Most important to me is not to let a day go by without practicing. Even if it's just 10 minutes and you're falling asleep over the fretboard, do it. Take note of every session practice time. Use a stopwatch to countdown when you just want to be 10 mins on one topic, etc etc etc etc

    Great topic, RJ!

  6. #6

    Default

    Here's a great thread from a while back. http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ht=cover+tunes

    It has some great ideas re: learning songs.

  7. #7

    Default

    I'm with the Golden Bear: 3-4 hours per day in 20 minute bursts with breaks is the most effective for me, regardless of subject matter.

    There's something about starting to practice (the first 5 minutes) that seems to be really productive. After 20 minutes or so that drops way off for me. I leave guitars on stands, in tune. That limits my excuses when it's time to practice. I'll often grab a guitar and play for 5-10 minutes while waiting for my wife or kids to get ready to go out.

    Having said that: I HAVE had real breakthroughs after practicing for 5+ hours straight. I've often wondered if those breakthroughs would have happened without the long, less-productive time prior.

    There: Clear as mud.
    - Jeff


    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
    - Carl Sagan

  8. #8

    Default

    Ever since I came across this quote, it has become my mantra:

    Amateurs practice something until they get it right; professionals practice until they never get it wrong.
    I used to work on a passage and move on, and while there was an illusion of progress it seemed like I never really got much better. Now it is much slower going initially, but when I come across something I've worked on I breeze through it. So I'm in the "keep drilling" camp.

  9. #9

    Default

    I'm with the 20 minute crowd.

    But maybe not quite like it's intended.
    You see, when I learn something new, I often find that it's similar to something somebody played. So I drift off for 20 minutes fooling with that, before continuing the lesson for few more minutes (till the next distraction)
    I recommend the authorized method of actually concentrating on the subject of learning for 20 minutes though.

    And just like RJ I've been a bit (understatement in my case) lax.
    However I do find breaks for like a week or two to be very good. It's like what you learnt kind of settles in your mind during a break.
    Johnny

    Less is more

  10. #10

    Red face WOW! That is the $64,000.00 Question!

    I hope to know better after the beginning of the year when I go back and assess what I did in my practice diary, but I have learned a few things that seem to be common to most good approaches.
    1. Keep a record of what you do. It is probably best to write out some goals that you want to achieve as well and then design you practice plan to reach those goals. I heard someone recently say that the difference between a dream and a goal is that you will accomplish the dream some day, whereas you will accomplish the goal on a Monday, Tuesday, or other specific date.
    2. Try to put the guitar in your hands every day (unless you decide to do it only six day per week and I am finding that taking a day off each week actually does seem to help me absorb better during the other days). Even if you can only practice a few minutes, it is beneficial.
    3. Profitable practice only lasts as long as my interest does. I may start out working on an assignment in harmonizing thirds, but if I work on it for thirty minutes and it is getting dull or boring, I give myself the freedom to switch to working on some songs I want to learn or that I just like.
    4. Review things you have already learned frequently. I play a major scale or a pentatonic scale virtually every day in one way or another.
    5. As much as possible, learn to play songs that YOU want to play. It is your guitar, your time, your work, your energies: if you can stand to be a little selfish anywhere it is in choosing what you want to play. I guess I am saying keep it fun.
    6. What works for someone else may not work as well for you. We are all a little different so we can expect to each have a different approach that works best for who we are. Glean for everyone and keep what works for you.

    Hope that helps.
    Proverbs 17:22 says "A cheerful heart is good medicine..." So I must be overdosing. "Guitar: for me it is just an all consuming, compulsive hobby." Alumini of Jeff Beasley's Shred Warehouse Classroom! & Steve Lasner's Bar Room Blues Workshop!

  11. #11

    Smile Practice

    My first post!

    I know some things about training and development that apply generally to any kind of learning. My credentials are that I have a Master of Education in Human Resource Development (i.e. training and development), I have been working in the field since 1977, and I learner is one of my top strengths, according to Gallup’s StrengthsFinder assessment. http://strengths.gallup.com/default.aspx

    I don’t say any of this to impress, just to give you some sense of where I am coming from.

    More about me is that I am 64 and I have been playing guitar since I was 17. I took some lessons when I was about 40 and got somewhat better, but I am not significantly better now than was at, say, 45. I want to change that, and the way to change that is through, um, practice.

    I said the same thing last year about this time, and didn’t follow through, so one thing I can say for certain: good intentions don’t mean squat … doing does. Anyway. Here’s what I have to say about practice:
    1. Set SMART Goals. You’ve probably all seen the acronym, but if not here’s the Wikipedia article on SMART goals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria
    2. Short and focused is way better than long and rambling. One thing I have found that helps me stay focused (in all facets of life) is the Pomodoro Technique. http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/
    3. Practice daily … even if it’s only for 10 minutes. Six 10 minute practice sessions per week will do more for you than one 60 minute session. http://blog.discmakers.com/2010/03/1...usic-practice/
    4. Feedback matters. This one is very important. If you really want to get better, you need accurate feedback at the time of the event. This is hard, because what we hear in our heads is generally not accurate. So, I have taken to recording my practice sessions. Whatever I practice, I listen to it immediately. If I don’t like what I hear, I practice it again. (There’s a lot out there on the importance of feedback, but I couldn’t find anything relevant to my point here. One thing that I think talks about the importance of feedback, based on what I have been told is Moonwalking with Einstein. ) This way of getting feedback seems to be helping, but I don't yet know for sure.
    Hopefully this is useful to someone. Or maybe just is interesting to someone.
    Last edited by EricH917; 05-25-2012 at 01:36 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    5,109
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    Eric

    Welcome aboard. What kind of music do you play?

    I think you'll enjoy TrueFire. It's has a ton of resources for learning to play as well as a friendly and helpful bunch of forum folk.

    Thanks for the insights into learning. I'm familiar w/SMART but will have to check out your link re the Pomodoro. All pieces of knowledge and encouragement are useful, if you ask me.
    ----------------------------------
    Stay tuned

    Chris

  13. #13

    Default

    I'm the dreaded "engineering type" trying to learn music....

    So I actually have to remember to practice playing the guitar, instead of learning too much theory, and getting bogged down in the math of music. So much easier than actually playing the thing!

    As for actually learning (anything), I practice in short segments for short period, trying to get this in at least several times a day. I'm not good at rote learning, but this is needed...so this helps. As for really learning, that requires "intentional focus"...but I still don't do it to long, as I retain best when I let my brain process offline before adding too much at once.

    So far so good. This round of learning, only a week in, with real focus and a Classroom too, I'm farther long than about a month of work when I tried to pick up the guitar last year....but without any real plan. I'm actually quite surprised by what I've been able to learn do far.
    Last edited by wvgman; 12-17-2014 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Classroom
    -Rick
    ...just picking up a guitar for the first time. Anti-rhythm is my superpower.

  14. #14

    Default Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jestme View Post
    Eric

    Welcome aboard. What kind of music do you play?

    I think you'll enjoy TrueFire. It's has a ton of resources for learning to play as well as a friendly and helpful bunch of forum folk.

    Thanks for the insights into learning. I'm familiar w/SMART but will have to check out your link re the Pomodoro. All pieces of knowledge and encouragement are useful, if you ask me.
    Thanks for the welcome. That's always nice -- much better than being flamed.

    I play an acoustic guitar, singer-songwriter covers mostly. Dave Carter, Gillian Welch and Tom Russel and of course Dylan, some Gordon Lightfoot and Ian Tyson to to back a bit. And more, but that gives you an idea.

    I've also started writing some of my own.

    I just bought the lesson on 50 chord tricks you must know, and I expect that to keep me busy for a while.

    I live in the Greater Cincinnati area and I am active (okay, I am president) of the Queen City Balladeers, a Cincinnati folky acoustic club that puts on the Leo Coffeehouse during the school year, for those who may be interested. Check us out at:

    http://queencityballadeers.org/

    Good people and good music. What more could you want.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    285

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dcat22 View Post
    I'm the dreaded "engineering type" trying to learn music....

    So I actually have to remember to practice playing the guitar, instead of learning too much theory, and getting bogged down in the math of music. So much easier than actually playing the thing!
    I am also an "engineering type". I often joke that there should be a Playing Music on the Right Side of the Brain book. For those not familiar with it, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is a well known late 70's book by an art instructor explaining why people with a dominant left brain hemisphere (which is detail oriented, analytical, and very exact) have a lot of trouble drawing when compared to those with a dominant right hemisphere (which is non-verbal and intuitive). I don't know if the research the book was based on stood up over time, but I do know that the exercises made a big difference in my drawing ability when I read it years ago. Thinking about my guitar playing in the same left-brain vs right-brain way, I can certainly explain a number of my core problems. Fixing those problems is proving to be a difficult and ongoing task.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    544
    Blog Entries
    6

    Default

    I like Pomodoro technique for things i don't like to do - scales, taxes, etc

    For things i want to do, when things 'flow' i can spend HOURS on something. While this sound good, the opposite - when there is no 'flow' - means that i really struggle to get much accomplished when my focus is off. Relating to guitar practice, if i get into it, i play as long as i am focused**. 5 minutes or 3 hours.... however it happens to go.

    Regarding the OP question - I think that there are 2 things you are working on with a song - getting the entire piece of music to sound good as a whole, and getting the hard parts technically correct. Playing the entire song end to end is fun for me, and it is no problem to do that a few times every practice. The more times you play it, the easier it is to really feel it and begin to own it. I don't know if it is the best thing to do, but i will fake the parts i can't play (playing the rhythm part or the roots or whatever) so that i can get the rest of the song down and enjoy it. Working on the harder parts sometimes requires a little Pomodoro. I have found that loading up a tough section into tuxguitar and having it start extremely slowly and then having it increase the tempo each playthru is very helpful and not as boring as it sounds.

    One thing i have found over the last 6 months is that after spending a ton of time on a section of music, if i take a few days off of that section, when i come back, it is like my fingers have had time to process all the practice and i can make real progress. If i don't give myself enough rest, i just become sick of it.

    Hope that helps,
    Tim

    **In the fall, when i had a little more time, i had a few nights where i sat down to strum a few chords (to clear my mind) before i went to bed. I would play around, work on some stuff, and then my watch would show that 2 or 3 hours disappeared. For a time, i had to set a little alarm so that i wouldn't stay up too late. Kids, or at least my kids, can be rough on a Dad who only has 4 hours of sleep.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    5,109
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dcat22 View Post
    I'm the dreaded "engineering type" trying to learn music....

    So I actually have to remember to practice playing the guitar, instead of learning too much theory, and getting bogged down in the math of music. So much easier than actually playing the thing! ...
    Great point. I think I have the same issue.
    ----------------------------------
    Stay tuned

    Chris

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    5,109
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EricH917 View Post
    Thanks for the welcome. That's always nice -- much better than being flamed.
    ...
    I live in the Greater Cincinnati area and I am active (okay, I am president) of the Queen City Balladeers, a Cincinnati folky acoustic club that puts on the Leo Coffeehouse during the school year, for those who may be interested. Check us out at:

    http://queencityballadeers.org/

    Good people and good music. What more could you want.
    Eric

    I checked out the web site. It looks like you have a cool and very active group. Being in NH its a tad too far away for me.
    ----------------------------------
    Stay tuned

    Chris

  19. #19

    Default

    OK, so the Pomodoro Technique is real? I thought that was Italian for 'tomato'...and initially imagined that you threw a tomato at the problem you were vexed with and it made you feel better... you know, kind of like the blues, but with tomatoes...right? Um, never mind...
    Just visiting TrueFire.com? Why not join us?


    http://truefire.com/ignite/?code=murrayatuptowngaller

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by murrayatuptown View Post
    OK, so the Pomodoro Technique is real? I thought that was Italian for 'tomato'...and initially imagined that you threw a tomato at the problem you were vexed with and it made you feel better... you know, kind of like the blues, but with tomatoes...right? Um, never mind...
    Pomodoro is Italian for tomato ... and while I like the idea of throwing tomatoes at vexing problems, those vexing problems too often turn out to be people. What do you do in that case?

    Eric

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    103
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EricH917 View Post
    Pomodoro is Italian for tomato ... and while I like the idea of throwing tomatoes at vexing problems, those vexing problems too often turn out to be people. What do you do in that case?

    Eric
    Interesting, never heard of Pomodoro.

    Will have to check out the Queen City Balladeers. Originally from Cincinnati, in Chicago now.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    103
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    It says the Pomodoro shouldn't be used for activities done in your freetime. Of course we know to practice guitar to improve, it should be undertaken with discipline, so I could see how this would be helpful.

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticguitar View Post
    Here's what I went thru yesterday in regards to practicing, out of curiosity I went thru TF TV and found what I could the opinions of the the TF instructors, Buono, Arnold, etc. on "Practicing". One instructor would say,''practice when you feel like it', another, "practice what turns you on", another, "learn rhythm" another, "learn scales". The opinon's were so diverse that my head exploded.
    What you nay have missed is play songs, always learning songs it what will teach you music.
    The trouble with this is some people start playing guitar because they want to play some kind of speed metal or they like Chet Atkins and each style of music requires great amounts of study.

    I have always found it best to play simple stuff, or break down a complex song to make it easier to play.

    Since I have played music for other human many moons, I have never heard a single person say play me that scale they want songs so even theory should be learned with songs.

    Each person learns guitar differently there is no magic way to learn it, but music as a whole yes there is a magic or easy way.
    you learn the major scale with chords and you play them forward and backward and number each chord.
    Using just the 3 notes of the basic triad for each chord will work, I was showed this as a small boy and it changed my life.
    The main step to being good at music is hearing it and you and anyone who wishes to learn music should get the sound of the major scale with chords inside there head or mind.
    It is not hard playing he scale can be done even by a person who has played a short time the key of G.
    you need not even learn the F# minor 7 b5 chord the D which is the 5 chord contain the F# and will pull you back to G.
    So play
    1 G
    2 Am
    3 Bm
    4 C
    5 D
    6 Em
    7 D or D/F#

    If you play this 15 minutes a day and listen and try to make these sounds with your mouth as well, the scale will be inside your mind.
    it takes 2 to 6 weeks of practice for most people and the results last a life time.
    Not really sure why teachers do not push this stuff more, whether it is an over site or a mistake, this is the foundation of all western music.

    It is my guess that guitar players do not do this while people who learn other instrument do, thus for this reason so few guitar players eve reach there goals.
    With all the practice you are only as good as your ears and it is that simple.
    This is why a person who plays sax can play so many melodies after a few months of playing,any person who has any band training or has spent time with pianist knows this is a fact and not something to over look
    Peace

  24. #24

    Default Finally figured it out.... (for me)

    After about a year and a half of various courses (a lot of them) I finally realized that for me there was something missing....

    I needed something that would get me off the beginner bottom into a place where I was able to absorb material that was presented to me.... I needed a system.... a simple one that could be replicated over and over with different inputs.. (chords and keys).....

    The tools I'm using are Neck Diagrams http://www.neckdiagrams.com/ and

    Chord WIzard... http://www.chordwizard.com/gold.aspx

    Everybody knows Neck Diagrams so no need to explain it.... but you might not be familiar with Chord Wizard....
    .... great program that will take input of note locations on the keyboard and tell you what chord it is... or you can choose a particular chord and the program will list them a (lot of them) and you can scroll down the keyboard to find on in the area you want..... check it out....


    So what I'm doing is using vamps... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vamp_(music)#Vamp


    I'm taking 2 and 3 chord vamps and running them down the keyboard... For example ... A Major and B minor... Start in the first position ... everybody knows that... Then use either Neck Diagrams and Chord WIzard when needed to identify the next chord location...

    So all it is ... is A-B minor... A B Minor... A B Minor... all the way down the keyboard... Play it as a song...

    The benefit is that the beginner will learn these positions... Then learn how you can incorporate slides between the cords....

    THink of learning the A - Bminor chord as a package.... What notes are common? Learn how to slide with each finger into the next position... So from every finger on the A chord to every finger on the B minor ....

    .. then from that B minor to the next A chord... all the way down the neck...

    Become an "expert" in simplying going from A to Bminor in every position that Chord Wizard gives you... (that you can reach.... the Wizard comes with some challenging (impossible) fingering suggestions....)


    Then crank up Chord WIzard and find alternate fingerings (inversions) of these chords... you will be amazed as to how many there are... so not only do you get comfortable with the standard fingerings that everybody knows but you will see fingerings that you never new existed... like on the three lower strings...

    This breaks out of your comfort zone... and then all of a sudden things start popping... Suddenly you are able to make the physical mental connections that tie 2 chord areas together.... effen awesome....

    So ...A - Bminor... then the same thing only change the B minor to a C# minor... and do the same process...then A-D, A-E, A-F#minor....

    You use Neck Diagrams and hand do the different sequences... This takes a little time but its worth it...

    At the end you will have a library with the Neck Diagram fingerboard with the alternating 2 (or 3) chord vamps down the neck...

    Chord Wizard also does all the modes... and shows the relationship between 2 different scales and how they are related modally....

    Using Chord Wizard with Neck Diagrams is an awesome combination....
    Carvin SH 645 http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog...hp?model=sh645
    BlackStar HT-5 Telefunken 12AX7, RCA 12BH7
    http://www.blackstaramps.co.uk/products/ht-5/ht-5rh.php
    Damage Control Liquid Blues RCA NOS long plates
    http://damagecontrolusa.com/products/liquid-blues/
    Line 6 HD 500
    Celestion Alnico Blue, Celestion G12H30 Greenback 55Hz.
    TRM Cabinets 2x12 Vertical Slant







  25. #25

    Default forgot to add....

    Then after the beginner goes through all the keys with the vamps and has a good knowledge of where the chords are....

    ... Then I would give this to them.... http://mugglinworks.com/chordmaps/mapA.htm

    With this one sheet the beginner can follow the arrows and actually be able to make some music...
    Carvin SH 645 http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog...hp?model=sh645
    BlackStar HT-5 Telefunken 12AX7, RCA 12BH7
    http://www.blackstaramps.co.uk/products/ht-5/ht-5rh.php
    Damage Control Liquid Blues RCA NOS long plates
    http://damagecontrolusa.com/products/liquid-blues/
    Line 6 HD 500
    Celestion Alnico Blue, Celestion G12H30 Greenback 55Hz.
    TRM Cabinets 2x12 Vertical Slant







  26. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robzebr View Post
    Then after the beginner goes through all the keys with the vamps and has a good knowledge of where the chords are....

    ... Then I would give this to them.... http://mugglinworks.com/chordmaps/mapA.htm

    With this one sheet the beginner can follow the arrows and actually be able to make some music...
    Love Steve's site it is many a children's site but the maps are very cool.
    While yes there are and endless way to find and view chords the guitar and it;s fret board is learnt by the use of the CAGED system or chords .
    the fret board software seems nice and I don't have it but the chord wizard seem to have a great deal of theory.
    I learned the guitar without these things but I can always could see the simple shapes , like the triangles, they stand out very clear in color and should help with memorizing as well.
    Thanks for sharing

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •