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  1. #1

    Default "The Law of Diminished Returns"

    I went to the Robben Ford Workshop at Trufire a few weeks ago, have been trying to wrap my head around some of the song writing concepts he presented...Mainly the use of the diminished scale and adding melody with the use of chords ..

    This recording is some of what I'm trying to apply.."The Law of Diminished Returns"...Key word is trying

    http://soundcloud.com/torr71/diminshed-return


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  2. #2

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    Sounds good. I enjoyed it. It sounds exploratory yet still sounds confident. It kept my interest which might not have happened if it lacked confidence.

    Murray
    Just visiting TrueFire.com? Why not join us?


    http://truefire.com/ignite/?code=murrayatuptowngaller

  3. #3

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    I will try to send a picture but you will need to be more articulate.
    I also have a paper or two about the use of some of these scales posted already in other places.
    I look forward to all of what Robben says if he says it's a law then it;s a law.
    another thing is sometime you have to keep coming back to something and not keep banging you head againt a wall.
    Is there a date set for the release of this .
    Peace
    http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/t...rogression.jpg

  4. #4

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    Hi Steveo,

    That Pic really has me Scratching my head now..

    This was an exercise in taking the Half -Whole Dim scale and starting with just a melody lines out of the scale and building chords off each of those notes (C6, Cm6, A13b9, A6, am7, am7b5, f#m6, C7#9 for the main part and C9, C13, F9, F13, Bb13b9, Bbmaj7 ,am7add11 for the turn around)..It was a 12 bar setup with the first 8 bars the same 4 bars repeated and for the turn around the last 4 bars I tried to switch to a Mixolydian scale for my melody..with the bass line walking down to from C to A....

    I really dig the sound of this scale probably works best when its just added to spice up a V7 chord , This was supposed to be something that is a diminished progression / Vamp..That I could use to work with, to get the Scale into my head and fingers...

    I believe Robben's Course is going to be released in June or July, and Its going to be in Great detail...

    Thank You all for the Input...Every little bit helps...

    Peace is Good
    Last edited by torr71; 04-29-2012 at 12:19 PM.


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  5. #5

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    Yeah
    This picture shows the gravitational pull found in music I have posted these in the major keys and too be honest I don't really see how a person can get minor harmony without the Major being burned in there mind.
    There is theory to back up why these pull existed but I would typo to much to explain it well I just say the 1 chord like any chord.
    the 2 chord likes the 5 and so forth, I have had people say Bach saw thins stuff it is just stuff I heard learning songs seemed the chords had a mind of there own and they do.
    Like animal magnetism the chord them selves have a mind.
    As always I try to be the voice of music, it speaks to us and it also called out to other chord.
    Maybe if I come there I will pick this to the true fire group, I could use some fun in them sun.
    I have a simple mind so it is pretty simple stuff and it has been covered in other course.
    simple minded is just me I really need not know why it all works as long as it works LOL

    I also have a paper about the whole step half step but I really don't understand it.
    I wrote the paper hoping I could get help with it but many people say it in many forums and got no help.

    I was really just looking for a way to explain why I play chromatic notes and I have kind of give up and just say because they sound good.
    The chart is backward but it;s show the 2 5 1 turnaround.
    Robben is one of my fav's I listen to him more long ago
    I have some of his Clinic produced with Don Mock, need to watch each again,I have many of his books and lessons it is funny he has changed his view as he has aged but he is still very cool.

    Peace

  6. #6

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    Diminished Scale.
    A much more interesting thing happens when you start mixing up the H-W Diminished scale with a minor or major pentatonic scale. This will give you a few nice tensions:

    I think this scale is one way of explaining many of the chromatic runs I picked up from Robben Ford and other more contemporary players.

    Larry Carlton recommended using 4 notes but not the root and try to see how these notes that are note part of the scale.

    Robben ford uses it going from the 1 chord to the 4 chord


    Half step – Whole step Diminished scale in C:
    C Db Eb Fb Gb G A Bb
    T b2 b3 3 b5 5 6 b7
    C minor pentatonic:
    C Eb F G Bb
    T b3 4 5 b7
    C major Pentatonic:
    C D E G A
    T 2 3 5 6
    The most common usage of these scales:
    Whole step/half step works on diminished chords C whole/half on Cdim7
    Half step/whole step works on Dominant 7th altered chords C half/whole on C7#9

    If we take a C half step/whole step scale C, Db, Eb, E, F#, G, A, Bb we see that four triads can be found within the notes of this scale: C major, Eb major, F# major, A major.

    Any triad played using these 4 triads can be moved over the neck using the interval of a minor 3rd or 3 frets ‘flavor’ to your phrases.


    You may also want to compare The Minor7b5 Arpeggio with the minor pentatonic, sorry having major PC trouble so I can't find too much more.
    One thing that may confuse people is they think they are building triads from this scale but I think they just have to accept that these triads are present within the scale.
    The half step whole resolves to the Dom and the whole step /half in a diminished chord resolution.

    I saw a clinic with Robben and he used term the Musical Godz have set this , I hate it was taken down it was a clinic same as the one you went too, someone posted it and I started posting links to it and it was taken down

  7. #7

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    Thanks Steveo !!

    I've alwasy had issues with the Half Whole / Whole Half Thang...

    Larry Carlton recommended using 4 notes but not the root and try to see how these notes that are note part of the scale.
    I have Larry's course, after watching it and trying to do what he presented ,it still comes out like DODO

    Thanks for the follow up.


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  8. #8

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    Check out Lick 32 From...50 ECLECTIC BLUES LICKS

    Here is a classic way to use a diminished scale in a blues. I begin the scale in bar 4 of the blues to create an altered I7 chord, I then resolve it to the IV chord on bar 5. This is something I, and many other guitar players learned from Robben Ford.

    The lick creates an A7 with a b9, #9, and 13. This really adds some cool tension before the change to the IV chord. Not only can we do this with the diminished scale, we can do it by adding a A7b9/13 chord at the same time.

    Just in time ...or however you play...


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  9. #9

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    Sounded puzzling to me, not sure I understand what is being attempted in this bit of music. But I'm slow musically speaking.
    Enjoy Your Karma, after all you earned it.
    email: gadlaw@gmail.com
    http://www.facebook.com/gadlaw

  10. #10

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    Yeah
    DO Do not too good unless it has a Da in it and is a police sing.
    My brother I think being musical is the key and had I been as the clinic we would have got a better answer or at least one easy to understand.
    Me I Learned by ear and played the stuff before I understood it ,but it is basic triads or chords that are not basics.
    But it all come down to the ear.
    Seems one of the first songs I learn to play this in was in memory of Elizabeth Reed
    over the one chord I would find it easier to play the diminished Arpeggio and I would play the half step scale on the 5 to the 4 in the blues maybe.
    it12 note they all relate and find the ones that sound good.

    Maybe the new course will help I am hoping so.
    peace

  11. #11

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    Yo Steveo,

    I was juk'in wit it again today trying to make some music out of this mystery...Shot a vid...I had tweaked my backing track that I had made, made some chages to the bass line and add some harmony



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by torr71 View Post
    Yo Steveo,

    I was juk'in wit it again today trying to make some music out of this mystery...Shot a vid...I had tweaked my backing track that I had made, made some chages to the bass line and add some harmony

    Yeah , oo me using it too much is not for me it is used by me as a way to just get outside a bit ,
    The Jeff lick is the w step /half step and not the half step whole step

    This is a hard subject and again do to my lack of PC skill I am not much help.
    As interesting as it is , not really sure about the song White rabbit it has some strange tone that I find may be the diminished scale stuff.
    I played the song in a band a few years ago, I know that after, people here 4 SRV songs and 2 Muddy Water songs they was not too many people who seemed to enjoy the White Rabbit song too much.
    After Rude Mood and who do you love and i AM a Man it hard for them to get into sounds that are outside .
    I think this is true unless your trying to feel groovey when you may should be trying to stay in a groove.
    again I do not practice this scale to much, same as the dim chord any root can theoretically be the given root

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadlaw View Post
    Sounded puzzling to me, not sure I understand what is being attempted in this bit of music. But I'm slow musically speaking.
    The fact that it sounded puzzling to you means you actually do understand!

    First, great thread topic, diminished motion is a great emotion stimulator! Used in different ways it can stimulate different emotions. Think old silent movies, they used music to stimulate emotions that matched what was happening in the movie. Remember seeing the old car heading for the cliff about to go over the edge? They used diminished motion to make the viewer feel the fear, anticipation, uncertainty! Often a dim7 chord would ascend by intervals of a step and a half (3 half steps) as the chord got higher up the fretboard the tempo would increase adding to the anticipation/anxiety. This was often done using a banjo!

    A very important thing to know is that a dim7 inverts itself every time it moves a step and a half, it depends on an additional root note to establish it's identity, for example if you play an Edim7 on the first 4 strings at the 3rd & 4th fret then move it up a step and a half it could be an Edim7 or a Gdim7 in either position depending on the root that is outside of those 4 chord tones. For that matter it also be a Bbdim7 or any other dim7 chord who's root is in that step and a half path way.

    One of my favorite uses of diminished motion is Brian Setzer in Stray Cat Strut, simple yet effective, BTW Setzer is a great one to listen to for some cool examples of diminished motion.

    So Gad, diminished motion is used to stimulate uncertainty and other emotions, the recording Tor put up uses a lot of diminished motion so being puzzled is a natural reaction. Usually you would not hear that amount of diminished motion, usually it would be used sparingly where needed but I think this recording is more about exploring the uses of diminished motion.

    Again, great topic, I'm going to create a video on some of my ways of using diminished motion.

    BTW, I used the term diminished motion because I'm thinking not just of a scale or chord but of the overall use of all things diminished.

  14. #14

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    Yeah
    i guess this is about the way I see it and use it, I have a diminished lick I play it often at music stores as it brings many people to look or stop what they are doing.
    It really is more musical than I am saying but it;s effect is to create tension, if I stand it the tension it would sounds horrible, but It resolves , I guess the greater the tension the greater the resolution will seem.
    Yeah the Stray Cats is a great example of this tension, not enough to un-hinge the family pet, but enough to create this mysterious atmosphere
    I am reasonably sure the song In memory of Elisabeth reed was where I heard or at least learn to make music with this stuff,
    Brian Setzer made Brad Paisley look like a child, Brad had not played with horns I guess.
    A old bassman and a roland space echo , yeah that will cut thru the horn section.
    Brad is really good.
    Again this is not a silent movie, so always be musical.
    If you create tension well that well need resolution or it's like a train wreak.
    This is why I pretty much just play chords and maybe and arpeggio Type stuff and I think the lick I use I may have got from the song Green Eyed Lady
    Brown eyed blue eyed,half blind crippled or crazy with one of them I just can't get no relief,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc1PHk9FhIk

  15. #15

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    Thanks Red? I remember when I would hear some Chick Corea stuff from the 70's that my brother in the Marines sent me from Africa. - On eight track by the way - the highest quality for music at the time outside of reel to reel. I would put one of those Chick Corea eight tracks in the awesome eight track player in my Plymouth Fury III and wonder what the heck I was listening to. Now I at least have some idea what it was. Ah indeed. It is worthy of more discussion and I'm reading these comments more than once.

    And Torr, dude, where did you get that hat? It's awesomely cool. It's definitely going on the quilt.
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    Enjoy Your Karma, after all you earned it.
    email: gadlaw@gmail.com
    http://www.facebook.com/gadlaw

  16. #16
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    Torr finally got a chance to listen to this. You did pretty good on not getting too "out there", so I wouldn't relate it to free jazz. I think by playing it slowly the listener has a chance to process and accept each phrase. Played faster I think it would get really confusing. Interesting to hear an entire piece done in diminished, rather than just the odd phrase here and there.
    Honey, I'm spending money on guitars or women, ... your choice.

    If you take Satan for a ride, pretty soon he'll want to drive.


    Favorite Course - Blues Alchemy
    Working On - Fretboard Epiphanies & Jump Blues

  17. #17

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    Thanks For all of the Input here...
    I'm totally mesmerized by the sound of this scale and digging learning all that I can...

    Again, great topic, I'm going to create a video on some of my ways of using diminished motion.

    BTW, I used the term diminished motion because I'm thinking not just of a scale or chord but of the overall use of all things diminished.
    This would be Great Red , Be sure and give us a heads up..or post it Right here..

    And Torr, dude, where did you get that hat? It's awesomely cool. It's definitely going on the quilt.
    Dude I got the hat while on business in Manhattan several/many years ago...Right in Penn Station..Its one of my Fav's...You need a High Res Photo for the Quilt...? Brother


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  18. #18

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    Torr,

    Read the thread start to finish, great insight! Stray Cat Strut is in my rep. and I always look forward to the "sneakiness" of the first solo (to Red's point about silent movies!). But what I really want to say is very cool sounds there Bro (i always enjoy your free form improv) You are definitely onto something, I look forward to hearing more.

  19. #19

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    Thanks G-man...
    I'm Looking into learning the Stray Cat Stuff...Be cool if we could get a list going of the songs that have this scale usage...

    I also forgot about the Shred-Ahead Blues Rock Course and Blog Jeff has some really cool stuff happening with the diminished scale and Stuff

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ck-Course-Blog

    Blues Rock Guitar Lessons - Shred Ahead - Jeff Beasley - The Half-Whole Scale



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  20. #20

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    Here's another cool vid...something else to confuse ya

    Larry Carlton - 335 Improv - The Diminished Scale - Blues Guitar Lessons



    Here's a Link to an Audio lesson and PDF

    http://truefire.com/list.html?store=...y=josh+workman

    Demystifying The Diminished Chord
    . Author: Josh Workman
    . Publisher: Guitar Player Magazine
    . Category: Blues, Acoustic, Country, Jazz/Fusion, Rock, Theory/Techniques
    . Description: Many guitarists know how to play diminished chords. Far fewer, however, truly know how to use them. That’s because diminished and diminished-7th voicings, when played out of context, have a dissonant and nebulous sound, the use for which is not readily apparent. But, placed in the right spot in a chord progression, these mysterious clusters fit more perfectly—and more satisfyingly—than the last piece of a jigsaw puzzle.
    Last edited by torr71; 05-06-2012 at 01:18 PM.


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  21. #21

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    This popped up on the Rader...
    "Outside" the Blues Scale... Using the Half-Whole

    This video lesson will cover how to use the "Half-Whole" also known as the "Dominant Diminished" scale on the guitar neck and how to practice hearing lines around dominant seventh chord qualities over a typical 12-Bar Blues progression.

    For a handout (showing all of the chord voicings) and an MP3 Jam Track please visit:?( cool backing track ! )
    http://www.andrewwasson.com/lessons/half_whole.php



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  22. #22

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    I found this vid on the Tube, It's the song that Larry based his Diminished Lesson from the above vid...(somewhere up there)
    "Burnable" - Larry Carlton with Robben Ford ,,,,I always love watching these cats play



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  23. #23

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    If you notice, Larry mentions using the diminished to add "drama" my point! Diminished is a great emotion stimulator! BTW Augmented chords/scales are also "dramatic"




    Quote Originally Posted by gadlaw View Post
    Thanks Red? I remember when I would hear some Chick Corea stuff from the 70's that my brother in the Marines sent me from Africa. - On eight track by the way - the highest quality for music at the time outside of reel to reel. I would put one of those Chick Corea eight tracks in the awesome eight track player in my Plymouth Fury III and wonder what the heck I was listening to. Now I at least have some idea what it was. Ah indeed. It is worthy of more discussion and I'm reading these comments more than once.

    And Torr, dude, where did you get that hat? It's awesomely cool. It's definitely going on the quilt.
    Wanna see something really confusing? When you mentioned 8 tracks and you Fury III you reminded me of my 66 Rambler American that also had an 8 track. That stimulated the memory of one of my favorite bands I listened to in my 8 track............I still can't totally understand this music but I've always enjoyed it! To me they sound like "Yes" on hallucinogenics.

  24. #24

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    Found this Cool Lesson on the Tube..
    Blues Guitar Lessons - Juiced Blues - Blues for Symmy - Comping Breakdown



    WARNING: This segment gets a bit heady so get yourself another dose of Ginkoba and let's get down

    As mentioned, the comping in Blues for Symmy makes use of a concept called harmonized scales. Simply put, harmonized scales are an order of elements (that's a great way to describe what a scale actually is--you heard it here first!) where the components are made up solely of notes from a given scale. Once complete you could say the chords contained within the harmonized scale are 'diatonic'. For our purposes the D, G and A symmetrical diminished scales were used to construct harmonized scales that feature stacked 4ths. While this is not the first instance of quartal harmony here in Juiced Blues, it is however going to be very different than what we've worked with thus far. Starting in Super Dom Blues, instances of stacked P4ths have been dropped here and there and to great effect. Here in Blues for Symmy, we're going to juice that approach by making playing with stacks that contain altered 4ths--tritones (remember, while a tritone is commonly referred to as a b5th, it is also enharmonically a #4). Why? Because it's jui-licious! Seriously, aside from sounding downright awesome, it's what the symmetrical diminished procreates. Watch.

    Assuming you've read the text included with the Blues for Symmy Soloing segment you have a handle on the ins and outs of the symmetrical diminished scale itself. If not, no sweat, the video portion of the segment breaks it down for you once again. On top of that, here's a quick review:

    The symmetrical diminished scale is an octatonic (8-note) scale whose formula creates a succession of consecutive half and whole steps, which is why the alternative name for the scale is the half-whole (H/W) scale. This succession is the reason why the scale is symmetrical--it's an endless cycle of consecutive half and whole steps. The degrees are as follows: 1 b2/b9 b3/#9 3 #4/b5/#11 5 6 b7. In D that would be D Eb F F# G#/Ab A B C D. Nested within this scale is a dom7 arpeggio starting from the root as well as a dim7 arpeggio both from the root and b2nd/b9th degree. Since we now know dim7 arpeggios are symmetrical, thus making every note in the arp a root that makes eight dim7 formulae! That's every note! Now, let's get stacking...


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  25. #25

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    Yeah I enjoyed the Jeff Beasley lick, I have Juice blues, again it a bit too much outside stuff for my ear all at once.
    While I listen to the giant clip I found it also to far out for me to really enjoy.
    Most people who listen to music as something they enjoy which is most humans would listen too and move too the Stray Cats or in memory of Elizabeth Reed. Because in these songs they return back to a more musical tone.
    They used the scale to build tension and then they resolved it.

    Peace

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveo View Post
    Yeah I enjoyed the Jeff Beasley lick, I have Juice blues, again it a bit too much outside stuff for my ear all at once.
    While I listen to the giant clip I found it also to far out for me to really enjoy.
    Most people who listen to music as something they enjoy which is most humans would listen too and move too the Stray Cats or in memory of Elizabeth Reed. Because in these songs they return back to a more musical tone.
    They used the scale to build tension and then they resolved it.

    Peace
    I totally agree...

    But after throwing myself into this demented stuff ...and I do mean complete over load , I'm hearing things I didn't hear before and it's helping me develop more chordal movement..( similar to a bowel movement but more musical and more feeling)
    50 progressive Licks has a nice Scott Henderson lick
    http://truefire.com/tftv/index.html?...eos/cc50pbl-24
    A Bit Demolished
    Lick #24
    Last edited by torr71; 05-20-2012 at 12:34 AM.


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  27. #27

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    Yeah
    just some advise , I think as far as licks go the Diminished Arpeggio is easier to use and make music with.
    A C Eb Gb played on two strings A 2 C on say E string
    Eb 2 Gb say A string and repeat again on D G B E string it always sound good and it easy to get back to something this is use in blues ,rock and metal even rock- a - billy and country.
    Don't have a true fire lick I can think of but I am sure there is one.
    often with the whole step half step there are other scale that do many of these same movement the Blues scale with has the b5 the double harmonic minor also has that out of key push to it.
    but stacked minor 3rd has a sound all there on and always sound good for 2 beats of a bar.
    Peace
    Yeah That demolished lick is what I wrote above mainly stacked 3rd,
    This song is also a great song that has a bit of this flavor I love the solo as well very tasteful, while Mr Green may not be the best role model he was a great blues player still is too.
    While this song has but one real diminished chord the way I play it the bridge has a plain jane chord that sure sound augmented and of course you could always play the E7 as an augmented. great song to know he made it his own too.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtmW2ek7WkQ
    Last edited by steveo; 05-20-2012 at 12:41 PM.

  28. #28

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    Thanks Steveo
    Nice Vid,

    Pretty much get what you're saying , advice is good ! That Lick from the 50 Ecliptic Blues is a really cool lick and it feels good under my fingers ...
    If you know of any more vids post'em...

    Peace to you...


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by torr71 View Post
    Thanks Steveo
    Nice Vid,

    Pretty much get what you're saying , advice is good ! That Lick from the 50 Ecliptic Blues is a really cool lick and it feels good under my fingers ...
    If you know of any more vids post'em...

    Peace to you...
    Man you may need to look at the paper I shared, I am pretty sure of it contents to be accurate.
    Again it can form a thread in another forum.
    The owner of the site had a degree in music and help me a great deal.
    I wish to share the peter green tune as another site I have been banished from finally took my advise and did the Peter green song, he did ok with the solo but messed up the chords LOL

    The stuff I write is pretty basic stuff, as I do not think as complex at many people so I think that I think in a simple person thinking so you may need to really and fully read and understand me,
    The movie sling blade in coming to my mind LOL .
    I pick the Peter Green song so you would see and hear the you can just bend to the b5 and get this Diminished movement.
    I think I can link up a kink for the Stray cats song but it is pretty boring to watch as the teacher just tells what fret to play but does not explaining why he picked these note how ever my paper wound, it the intervals.
    I am not any expert by any means but the answer as to why it sounds good or works is always in the intervals.

    Guitarist we are to much a pattern playing group this is why I like song like Oh WELL as I did not really learn to play by these pattern I learn the major scale, I think when I learn this song I did not even know there was a petatonic scale at all.
    I guess because I use my ears to learn songs like this and it sound good I need not fully understand why it works the fact that it works is good enough.
    This song really should have been a you must learn this song to proceed in life as it has so much to offer and it is musical.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=735dX...eature=related

    again I will try to do more with this tread it is too bad the link to what Robben had to say is gone I posted it and I think I even ask people to make copies in case it don't pull but it could have been in another forum, I did post it here.
    O don;t really remember exactly what Robben said
    I know he compare the perfect 4th and the perfect 5th interval as being the same distance but each having a different meaning but C to G is a 5th G 2 C is a 4th.
    He also said you did not have to think of what chord are really made but just accept that the musically godz say this stuff works.
    It was a full clinic film like the one just done I really hate it got the ax and I hate I was not at that clinic as well.
    again I am not really good at PC stuff Red also tried hard to make it simple, I would suggest you to learn the Oh well song at it creates the great tension .
    Try it.
    Peace

  30. #30

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    Was going through ..
    Modes That Matter
    and Chris has a really cool part about the" Symmetrical Diminished Scale "

    By name alone you can predict at least one attribute contained with the symmetrical diminished scale. That’s right, it’s symmetrical! Weighing in at 8 notes before playing an octave this scale is the lone octatonic formula, which by the way runs in a similar fashion to the altered scale. The formula is as follows: 1 b9 #9 3 #4/#11 5 6 b7. The symmetry here is the repeating half-whole step formula. And yes, the 3rd and b7th degrees make it a V7 chord scale, but like Phrygian Major there’s more to it than just that.

    The three styles you’ll explore symmetrical diminished in is funk, jazz and the blues with the latter being a very cool way to inject some new life into your 12 bar improvisations.
    http://truefire.com/tftv/index.html?..._symdimintro_w

    He cover this in the Style of Funk Jazz and Blues and if you download the "Modes That Matter The Source Book" Chris has some really cool break down of diffident fingering and patterns in all keys... That's what I'm talking about !

    Download the Source Code Book here!
    http://truefire.com/tftv/index.html?...atter_charts_w

    Scales can be fingered in so many ways it will make your head explode. A single vertical position alone can garner myriad ways to play the same scale. Throw in surrounding vertical areas, horizontal and diagonal approaches as well as unique fingering patterns and you'll start to see what I'm talking about. To attempt to know them all is beyond impossible. And, is it really necessary? Here's the simple answer: Absolutely not. What you need to know is whatever system of fingerings will enable you to see the neck in its entirety.

    Attached to this segment in PDF form is a scale fingering compendium that spans the gamut. Seriously, there's a LOT of scale fingerings to choose from here, folks. But, notice I used the phrase "to choose from" as opposed to "to know" or "to learn", or worse, "to memorize". This collection is meant for you to peruse and choose. Find a system (or two) that feels good and works for YOU. Find one that makes the most sense when it comes to what you want to play both physically and stylistically. You may discover certain scales work better for you within one approach as opposed to another for another scale. What's more as you explore all the options you may even come up with a system all your own! There's no rules here; go with whatever works for you. If it means knowing them all--that's cool, too

    After finding a set that works for you make sure you "play" them as opposed to "practice" them. Dig right in and start constructing lick and riff ideas. And, when doing so make sure you force yourself to immediately start applying all the guitar-istic phrasings we love to utilize--legato techniques, bending, etc. Make the scales become part of your playing right from the start and not something that feels like an exercise or task. This will help you get these new sounds into your music that much faster. Aside from the initial learning of the scale(s), if you catch yourself going into robot mode playing them from bottom to top over and over and over and more: STOP. It shouldn't feel like you're trying to memorize them. Remember: Play music! Make if fun!!

    Now, let's hear what they sound like…




    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  31. #31

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    I own the modes that matter and can't find the source book.
    Not really sure why it is not in my course.
    I am not really sure why he don't really push the CAGED in the modes he stays with the E shaped.
    maybe just to make it somewhat easier to understand.
    Getting of the topic but the CAGED shapes are very important to understand.
    Same as with the G shaped chord it has it has certain characteristics that would make you choose it over the C shaped scale.
    I am hoping Robbies course on modes will make this more clear or plain to see.Watch some of Brad new course as well, while i did not get the cracked Caged as it may bore me as I think I get it.
    No MATTER the scale or mode I see the CAGED shapes, I do have trouble seeing the shapes withing the half step whole step and the whole step half step scales same as the whole tone.


    It is a good course and I would like to have this source book but I really go by the simple CAGED shapes.
    also not sure why he does not really say the flat 9 and the flat 2 are en-harmonics.
    Thanks for sharing

  32. #32

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    If you have access to the course on TrueFire TV you can download it , or Email Ren at TrueFire and they will take care of it...

    Was checking out the new Modes Course today too...The Caged system is the easiest way for me to reference where I'm at. when soloing I'm looking more at chord shapes than Scales...The Phrygian Dom is another cool scale and a bit close to the Diminished/aug ...Good stuff all around..


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by torr71 View Post
    If you have access to the course on TrueFire TV you can download it , or Email Ren at TrueFire and they will take care of it...

    Was checking out the new Modes Course today too...The Caged system is the easiest way for me to reference where I'm at. when soloing I'm looking more at chord shapes than Scales...The Phrygian Dom is another cool scale and a bit close to the Diminished/aug ...Good stuff all around..
    Yeah it is always a good idea to see the shape of the Chord in any scale , again the Diminished is hard to do this.
    I think I aslo already stated the half step a whole step scale is easy to maybe explain this scale or the way it is used is much like other modes.
    Phrygian Dom has the 6th which make it not sound like the diminished to me.
    I am looking forwards to Robbie's mode course as I think he will explain it in a easy way , not sure but it is just what I think.

    If you can't sing the major scale and it relative minor meaning you can't hum it or hear it clear inside your mind modes is never really going to make sense to you or anyone.
    The amount of mis conception about modes, is just that simple
    I am not a mode master when I think of the 3rd degree chord being changed to it secondary dominate I think if Phrygian Dom.
    I do not think to much about modes I may play them and know that I am playing them, but I mainly think is the tonality major or minor and that's about it
    Peace
    Yeah I do need to talk with Ren he is always a great help.
    Peace

  34. #34

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    Found some more of the same, but it seems like I pick up a bit more when getting someone else's perspective...


    Diminished Scale Part 2 -- Blues Use Robben Ford Style
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJXsyJT4Yb8

    Diminished Scale Part 3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgslYCm5bDY


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  35. #35

    Default

    As I continue this quest to completely confused myself , I'm finding out that some of this is starting to stick....I'm discovering some cool patterns that sit very nicely under my fingers and Using Intervals to help the Head navigate the fret board is very easy...

    take,,,,,a whole step down and up a fourth and up a minor third and repeat.....so...if G is my root...G down to F (Whole Step) F to Bb (Fourth) Bb up Db/C# (minor 3rd)....Repeat..Db down B ...B up to E...E up to G...Its very easy to see these Intervals, even when you go from the Fourth and Fifth string where things shift a bit...

    Wish I could chart this out,,,sorry no time...need to play some geetar..
    Last edited by torr71; 06-09-2012 at 06:40 PM.


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  36. #36

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    Mr. Ford had mentioned that a lot of his Diminished stuff was Inspired by the The Great Miles Davis and recommended listening to other Instruments , To help feed your Growth..

    This Horn players Diminished lesson pop up on my Tube list and it has some cool info on this Diminished stuff...



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  37. #37

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    Yet another Movie..
    Great little one from Mr. B.
    It's Hot Outside - #1 Injecting a Diminished 7th Arpeggio - Guitar Lesson - Jeff Beasley


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  38. #38

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    Here's a cool tune that I found that has a bit of a Diminished Idea going on...
    The bulk of the tune is centered around an E maj and E7b5b9.

    Very cool song....



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  39. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by torr71 View Post
    Yet another Movie..
    Great little one from Mr. B.
    It's Hot Outside - #1 Injecting a Diminished 7th Arpeggio - Guitar Lesson - Jeff Beasley
    Really liked Jeff Beasley's lessons pretty hot outside licks.Jeffs thoughts on playing outside notes are good stuff.

    Can't see the old horn player sheet music but seemed to sound good.
    Still have not found my source book from modes that matter.

    Still waiting on Robben's course, I think they said August was the expected release date.

    Myrtle Beach
    Just getting back from the beach,got to touch a 5 foot Bull Snark,it was in the surf and I got to chase it of with my walking stick and yeah it did not like me poking it.
    There a few bad words said here but they did not expect to see this 7 or 8 footer.
    Peace

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmy-6gMjUZY

  40. #40

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    Dang ! That was Crazy...

    been wondering about the Ford stuff meself...Thanks for the Vid
    Last edited by torr71; 07-16-2012 at 03:23 PM.


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by torr71 View Post
    Dang ! That was Crazy...

    been wondering about the Ford stuff meself...Thanks for the Vid
    Yeah the best instruction I came across was Robben Ford doing a clinic, It was removed from utube.
    Was really good talk about the 4 and the 5 chord trick man I wish I had of copied it or at least studied it more.

    C 2 G is a 5th G 2 C is a 4th.

    It is 7 half step between each.

    To make it easy on my mind I just remember that the notes in key you are playing are often easy to complement or changed a 4th back or a 5th up.There is no F in the key of G but it sounds good over a G chord and the F is in the key of C .
    Thanks for sharing the clips. Peace

  42. #42

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    Over in Sherpa World Sheryl Bailey Posted a Lick in the Student Union call the Tri-Tone Lick...which turns out to be a mod of the Half-Whole Diminished Scale...
    Works over a Dominant 7th chord...ie

    G-B-D Db-F-Ab it's two triads and when played like a scale, sounds real cool...Here's my take using it in the Jam track she gave us...



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  43. #43

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    is there a link ti this Student Union or do you have to be in the class?????.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveo View Post
    is there a link ti this Student Union or do you have to be in the class?????.
    Me Thinks you have to be enrolled in one of the classes...


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  45. #45

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    Thanks.
    Well it still a little to outside for my taste but is a musical passage so I would say that's a good thing.

    Guitar is not like a scab if you keep picking at it ,well it will get better

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    14
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by torr71 View Post
    I went to the Robben Ford Workshop at Trufire a few weeks ago, have been trying to wrap my head around some of the song writing concepts he presented...Mainly the use of the diminished scale and adding melody with the use of chords ..

    This recording is some of what I'm trying to apply.."The Law of Diminished Returns"...Key word is trying

    http://soundcloud.com/torr71/diminshed-return
    Hi All,
    Sorry I am little behind the eight ball here. We have been having power downs here because of the hot weather lately. Anyway, I loved the track, as it reminded me of a great guitar player that did not get much recognition in the US, but I grew up listen and playing with guys that played LIKED HIM, so to me it brought back some fond memories. Enjoy.. because in my opinion (for that is worth), his man is the best I have ever heard at diminished scale use and poly rhythmic patterns and use of scalar movements. He is on the German ECM label, but I know that there downloads on the net. Terje Rypdal

    http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/terje-rypdal/977

    Sky...

    Keeping it going on day to day basis.. striving to reach more each day...and enjoying the journey..

  47. #47

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    Hi Sky !!
    Welcome to the Party
    Never have heard of this dude,,,Thanks for the article and I found this Vid on the Tube...Great Player



    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  48. #48

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    Time to bring this back to life...Been playing the blues again and trying to apply the diminished scale for some out side playing...Robben Ford is the Master when it come to this...
    Last edited by torr71; 09-12-2013 at 07:39 PM.


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


  49. #49

    Default My approach to the diminished scale/arpeggio (half/whole)

    Very cool thread, I love the diminished sound.

    The simplest way I have found to approach it is like this:

    Take a G7 chord for example, and spell the notes of the chord as an arpeggio:

    R-3-5-7 = G-B-D-F

    Now play from the 3rd and go up in minor thirds and related to the dominant chord you'll get 3-5-7-b9.
    Think of this (with a G root) as a G7b9 arpeggio, and b9 is a common jazz alteration that creates tension.

    E-----------------4---
    B---------3--6-------
    G----4---------------
    D--------------------
    A--------------------
    E-------------------

    Without the G root you have a diminished arpeggio.

    As each of the intervals are equal you can start from any of the four notes in the arpeggio (B-D-F-Ab).
    This means there are four diminished arpeggios that you can use over G7 to create some tension!
    This is a very cool sound before you resolve to the I chord, CMAJ7.

    Now here's the part that can make your head hurt, these arpeggios also work over Bb7, Db7 and E7 (minor third intervals) because over a dominant chord, you can play diminished arpeggios from the 3rd, 5th, 7th and b9th of the chord.

    Still with me? Hello?

    Okay, back to our B diminished arpeggio over G7, played B-D-F-Ab

    If you put a note a half step below each note of the arpeggio you get the half whole diminished scale, which is a fantastic tool for creating lots of hip tension over a V7 chord before resolving into a nice melodic I chord.

    If you want to see the half whole diminished scale from the root of the dominant chord, you could play it with these notes, again using G7 as our example chord:

    G-Ab-Bb-B-Db-D-E-F-G

    Try listening to the way this sounds over a G7 chord then resolve into C MAJ7 once you've created enough tension to make your dog howl.

    Have fun!
    Rob Garland
    http://www.robgarland.net

    TrueFire Instructor - Classroom 'GUITAR BABYLON' and workshops
    https://truefire.com/classrooms/sher...?room=RGarland
    New Course Coming Soon!

  50. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RGarland View Post
    Very cool thread, I love the diminished sound.

    The simplest way I have found to approach it is like this:

    Take a G7 chord for example, and spell the notes of the chord as an arpeggio:

    R-3-5-7 = G-B-D-F

    Now play from the 3rd and go up in minor thirds and related to the dominant chord you'll get 3-5-7-b9.
    Think of this (with a G root) as a G7b9 arpeggio, and b9 is a common jazz alteration that creates tension.

    E-----------------4---
    B---------3--6-------
    G----4---------------
    D--------------------
    A--------------------
    E-------------------

    Without the G root you have a diminished arpeggio.

    As each of the intervals are equal you can start from any of the four notes in the arpeggio (B-D-F-Ab).
    This means there are four diminished arpeggios that you can use over G7 to create some tension!
    This is a very cool sound before you resolve to the I chord, CMAJ7.

    Now here's the part that can make your head hurt, these arpeggios also work over Bb7, Db7 and E7 (minor third intervals) because over a dominant chord, you can play diminished arpeggios from the 3rd, 5th, 7th and b9th of the chord.

    Still with me? Hello?

    Okay, back to our B diminished arpeggio over G7, played B-D-F-Ab

    If you put a note a half step below each note of the arpeggio you get the half whole diminished scale, which is a fantastic tool for creating lots of hip tension over a V7 chord before resolving into a nice melodic I chord.

    If you want to see the half whole diminished scale from the root of the dominant chord, you could play it with these notes, again using G7 as our example chord:

    G-Ab-Bb-B-Db-D-E-F-G

    Try listening to the way this sounds over a G7 chord then resolve into C MAJ7 once you've created enough tension to make your dog howl.

    Have fun!
    Thanks Rob, I like your perspective on this...I love the sounds that can come from this stuff, just need to keeps working it.. Trying to make licks / phrases that don't sound like a scale or arp aint easy...
    Having Fun


    Best Ever !


    Praise Be The Lord, My Rock, Who Trains My Hands For War, and My Fingers For Battle;


    My name is Michael Westen. I used to be a spy.
    Check out the "Triads & Hendrixian Double Stops" Study Group" Put in your 2 Cents

    http://truefire.com/forum/showthread...ot-Study-Group


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